After reading John's and Carolyn's versions of the Vane-Tempest succession, I'm tempted to agree with you both, in that Wm Harry and 'our John Vane' are probably simple fifth cousins after all. My source for the 'fourth-cousin-once-removed' idea was www.thepeerage.com, and either it's broken, or something went wrong with my transcribing of it.

At the very least, they have one 'blank' in the Vane-Tempest line, so there's obviously something 'iffy' with their records (I never did like that site much! LOL).

Re the Somerset record, the link should work, but there's a chance that email programs will cut it short - so I've made a 'tinyurl' version which is: http://tinyurl.com/5b7nll

That should take you to the 'head record' for that item in the Somerset collection. I'm convinced it's probably a mistaken transcript, but I'd be curious to know whether it's a mistake on the original deed itself, too!

Carolyn mentions that Wm Harry Vane 1st Duke Cleveland hasn't turned up much in her searches - and that doesn't surprise me in the least. The only lead 'definitively' (albeit later proving to be wrong) linking him and Rev John Vane that I ever had in the first place, was that aforementioned Somerset Archive record (which hopefully you can now read okay).

Much later after that, John Gowar turned up something with respect to Wm Harry being godfather to Frances Anne Vane-Tempest (John/Jack's sister or half-sister), which leads me to believe there MAY well be a similar godfatherly connection between Wm Harry Vane and 'Jack/John Vane Rev' - and if that godfather relationship really does exist, it would perhaps explain the confusion in the Somerset Archive record, maybe? A simple 'godfather vs natural father' mixup of some kind, perhaps?

Beyond that, though, you're right, Carolyn - there is little else to suggest any 'formalised' and high-profile relationship between John/Jack and Wm Harry 1st Duke Cleveland - but of course, the 'obvious' connection I'd forgotten is that John Vane became rector in villages (Wrington & Burrington) which Wm Harry 1st Duke OWNED (by virtue of the succession from the Pulteney family estates... Grace Fitzroy, Anne Vane, et al, after the death of Henrietta Countess of Bath and her husband around 1830).

It was this 'location connection' which piqued my interest originally - the discovery (thanks to Richard Thorn's website!) of a 'John Vane' as a rector in Wm Harry Vane's estates, and the question arose whether John had been 'installed' there by Wm Harry. And, moreover, WHY? And was it a coincidence they had the same surname. Obviously, it was but a short mental-hop from there, to suppose that perhaps John was Wm Harry's
illegitimate son, though this was a revelation not backed up by any evidence in the Cleveland Vane information that I had already... Until, that is, the 'natural father' quote in the Somerset Archive record popped up in a search, and seemed to seal the parentage question, at least for a while!

I'm still confident that the 'installation' of John as Rector pretty obviously MUST have happened by the hand of Wm Harry, albeit for slightly different reasons-of-parentage than I first surmised! But this simple fact of John's employment must surely show evidence of some level of 'formal' connection between Wm Harry Vane and John Vane.

If we did later find the Duke truly was 'godfather' to John/Jack (as we know he was to Jack's sister, Frances Anne Vane Tempest), that would back it up further, but I am in agreement now that (after a four-year study!) Wm Harry Vane 1st Duke Cleveland was probably not 'natural father' to John, and that John is most likely 'Jack', the illegitimate son of of Sir Henry Vane Tempest.

All the best,
Neil
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From: John Gowar, Redhill, 29th May, 2008

It would be worth noting that John Vane resigned the incumbency at Wroxeter (in the diocese of Lichfield) in order to take up the Rectorship of Wrington. He held the former position from 1823 until 1828. The patron of both parishes was William Harry Vane, later first Duke of Cleveland.

In parallel with the holding of these positions, he was Second Fellow at Dulwich College from 1818 until 1848. He was also vicar of the newly built "Napoleonic church" of St. George's Camberwell fom 1824 until 1832. Busy man!
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From: Ron Tempest, 4th June, 2008

Re .Rev. John Vane

Though entering somewhat belatedly the most interesting discussion on the proposed ancestry of the above I wonder if the following comments and observations may be of interest with regard to the story and possible connections with the county of Durham.

That John Vane may be equated with Jack Vane illegitimate son of Sir Henry Vane-Tempest Bt. (1771-1813) as stated by Mr Gowar would appear to be supported by his approximate date of birth circa 1792. His mention of an Earl Vane in his will would also support such a supposition for the following reasons.

Sir Henry Vane-Tempest Bt was the son of the Rev. Henry Vane Bt. (1729-1794) of Long Newton Co.Durham and Frances Tempest of Wynyard mar. 3/3/1768 St Mary's South Bailey , Durham . Frances was the sister of John Tempest of Wynyard (1739-1794). John Tempest had only one child, a son John Wharton Tempest(1772-1793) with his wife Ann Townsend of Hertfordshire . The son was badly injured in a riding accident and despite the attention of the eminent surgeon Hunter died intestate at 21 in Brighton. He is the subject of a painting by George Romney. His devastated father survived him by only one year and devised the Tempest properties including Wynyard upon his nephew Henry Vane stipulating that he should adopt the name and arms of Tempest in addition to his own.

This is the basis of the Vane-Tempest connection with Wynyard. It was reported that the young Sir Henry was abroad at the time and learnt of his inheritance via the newspapers. Upon arrival he found Wynyard deserted Mrs. Tempest having retired to Little Grove, East Barnet Herts. and was initially not recognised.

The Tempests had represented Durham as MPs continuously from the 1650's and Sir Henry assumed the mantle representing the city of Durham from 1794 to 1800 and the county from 1807 until his death from apoplexy in 1813. He was a great sportsman owning the celebrated racehorse Hambletonian. In the famous match with Diamond on Newmarket Heath Hambletonian won by a neck with a staggering 3,000 guineas riding on the result. Sir Henry rode his horse in Hyde Park the following morning! The aftermath "Hambeltonian rubbing down" is the subject of possibley Stubb's finest work. He is buried at Long Newton.

Sir Henry married in April 1799 Anne MacDonnell, Countess of Antrim in her own right.They had one child Frances Anne (1800-1865).

Frances Anne married in 1819 as his second wife ,the soldier and diplomat Charles Stewart (1778-1854) a baron in the Irish peerage and the half brother of Castlereagh the Foreign Secretary and effective PM in Lord Liverpool's administration. Upon Castlereagh's suicide in 1822 his Irish titles passed to his half brother who became Marquess of Londonderry. It was assumed that Charles Stewart's Irish titles would pass to Frederick, his son by his first marriage to Catherine Darley (d. 1812) thus leaving George (1821-1884) his first son by Frances Ann Vane-Tempest without a title.

To remedy this Charles Stewart was created Earl Vane and Baron Seaham in the UK peerage with a special remainder to his son George by Frances Ann. George may thus well be the Earl Vane mentioned in John Vane's will and his possible nephew. In the event Charles Stewart's first son died without issue thus George became in addition 5th Marquess of Londonderry.George assumed the family name of Vane-Tempest in preference to Stewart.

Ms Carolyn Grant's observations on the identity of her ancestor Mary Vane's mother are also most interesting. Sir Henry Vane (Tempest) Bt. older sister Frances Vane (b.12/5/1769) was one of the most striking women of her generation and the subject of the Hoppner painting as the Tempest's Miranda.Her marriage to Michel Angelo Taylor MP (1757-1834) is well documented but as yet I have come across no evidence of an illegitimate daughter by a member of the Courtenay family.There is however a another distant connection with her husband who was a descendant of Brook Taylor FRS (1685-1731) the famous mathematician whose mother was Olivia Tempest (1659-1716) a member of the Tempests of Stella, Co.Durham.
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From: John Gowar, Redhill, 4th June, 2008

A further, extra-ordinary coincidence. I had discovered that Anne Tempest (née Townsend) retired to Littlegrove, Hertfordshire, after her husband's death. I was born and brought up in New Barnet, just a mile away, and Littlegrove had become the junior school that I attended. She is buried in the parish church where my parents married. Another visit to plan!